I have hit my fucking limit.
http://select.nytimes.com/2006/02/20/opinion/20herbert.html
For this of you not subscribed to the TimeSelect service (the New York Times subscription upgrade) what Bob Herbert's writing about is the Maher Arar case -- the Syrian-born Canadian software engineer who was kidnapped at Kennedy Airport by the US government and flown to Syria, where he was held (and tortured) for 10 months in a rat-infested underground cell the size of a grave.
At which point he was released, because (even under torture) nobody could find any evidence he had any link to terrorists.
So Arar, as the resident of a Western democracy and a believer in due process, sought the kind of legal remedy a law-abiding citizen should: he went to court, seeking redress for the illegal and unconstitutional abuse of his person.
His lawsuit was dismissed yesterday.
Not because it was without merit. That's the thing. Exactly the opposite.
The judge who dismissed it threw the case out because discovery might have, for example, uncovered the Canadian Goverment's complicity in this illegal action, and thus precipitated an international incident . . .
Basically, the judge admits the US Government acted illegally. And that there's nothing the judicial branch can do about it, because revealing the details of this illegal activity might harm US international relations.
You get it?
This federal judge says THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION CAN DETAIN AND TORTURE INNOCENT PEOPLE OPENLY AND AT WILL, AND THERE'S NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO ABOUT IT.
Except whine.
And vote the cocksuckers out of office this year.
Yeah: I'm talking the 2006 Congressional election.
Because if the Democrats can take back Congress, we can impeach the fuckers.
Do it.
Now, finally, I'm a Democrat. Why?
BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT THE FUCKING REPUBLICANS.
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34 comments:
Fuck. Fuck.
From The Globe and Mail, Saturday, Aug. 27, 2005
Abdullah Almalki says he spent almost two years in squalor at Syrian prisons where he was routinely subjected to physical and psychological torture at the hands of interrogators who knew things that only Canadian authorities would have known. Like his friend Maher Amar, Almaki believes that the federal government was complicit in an international anti-terrorist operation that ultimately resulted in Canadian citizens being tortured in Syria to elicit answers to questions that both Canadian and American authorities wanted addressed.
The third one--that we know of--is Ahmed El-Maati.
One of them was 'flagged' because he had an outdated Ottawa travel map.
One of them was flagged because he had worked for the UN years before, in Afghanistan, with a man named Khadr, who did end up working with bin Laden. But the undercover cop who gauged the man's loyalties exposed absolutely no links in the past decade.
Yeah. That whole 'national pride' thing is spiraling downwards.
Matt,
Can you post the article? I don't care enough for the NYT to subscribe.
Thanks
Wow. Surely, surely, something like this will wake up the sheep...please?
Chris, where'd you get the shirt? I think I need one. I'm close enough to Mexico that they might just deport me.
Richard --
I can't post the article; that would be a violation of copyright, and I take intellectual property laws very seriously indeed, for reasons that should be obvious.
However, there ought to be plenty of details on the case available free on the Web; just Google the guy's name -- I know from my Canadian contacts that this story's been all over the press up there for years.
Matt,
Right you are. Here are some links with more info for those interested:
http://www.metronews.ca/reuters_national.asp?id=130605
http://www.counterpunch.org/arar11062003.html
http://www.maherarar.ca/
You just got this *now* ?
Damn dude.
Unfortunatly I feel it will be found that we have had increasingly more and more involvement in such activities with the USA. Canada has started to sink even deeper into their pocket, to the point WE should have the right to impeach 'W'. The worst part of it is that our gov. refuses to admit we play such an active role, especially seeing how we're not supposed to be involed in Iraq. How many soldiers do we have over there right now? Not including the 4 that accidentally killed by US pilots a few years back.
"The worst part of it is that our gov. refuses to admit we play such an active role, especially seeing how we're not supposed to be involed in Iraq."
You realise, don't you, that the Canadian government has not sent any troops to Iraq? There are Peacekeeping troops in Afghanistan, but not in Iraq. The four soldiers you're referring to who were shot down by a U.S. pilot was in Afghanistan during a bombing raid in South Afghanistan in 2002.
Hey Matt - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4744000.stm
Comments?
I was sort of thinking "No shit!" might be a remotely proper reaction...
Thank you, Matt. I had not heard of this story, but I'm glad you brought it up. I only wish that more people knew about it. Frankly, I've been disgusted by the things I've been hearing about that are going on south of the boarder (yes, I'm Canadian). If anyone should be brought up on war crimes and crimes against humanity...you all know who I'm talking about...
I hope for the sake of the world, the American economy, and the basic human rights of everyone on this planet that Bush, and whatever trolls he has working for him, gets their collective asses handed to themselves sooner rather than later. This article only goes to show how bad the corruption is....
...and to think some people said the Canadian Liberal government was corrupt for losing track of several million dollars...Bigger country, bigger blunder...
Hey Matt, wanna be an expatriate with me?
I can honestly say that I fucking *hate* being an American these days.
Nice rant.
Are you done repeating what the US government spoon-feeds you like the little propaganda-sucking chimp that you are?
We both have an agenda. While America's is the spread of democracy
Yup. No better way to show our commitment to *that* ideal, which is ostensibly about the rights of the individual, than to completely ignore the rights of some individuals.
Wait, that's the opposite of logic!
There is no sit down or rationalizing we can do with them.
Sure, among the extremists. But hey, guess what? Not every person in the Middle East is an extremist. You know what is likely to make them more extreme? Reports of torture of their own. You know what is likely to make them more moderate? Reports of reasonably treated POWs.
You catch more flies with honey than with a year-long beating.
Who's really spoon feading who?
The one repeating what his government feeds him: hating your freedom, western civilisation under attack, ad nauseum.
What is in fact the problem here, that you *are* ignoring is this: An innocent Canadian man was sent to a foreign prison and then tortured. An innocent man. Jurisprudence was completely ignored. The entire concept of innocent until proven guilty was ignored.
And now that man wants to see the laws of both the US and Canada fulfilled, and it's quite possibly being rejected.
See, this is what we're talking about. Not some mindless scree about some civilisation under attack (bollocks). Not an agenda that has your destruction in mind. This is about the pre-conceived notion that the man involved - Maher Arar - has particular rights which are granted to him because the US and Canada both signed UN Human Rights accords after World War II came to a close, and because Canada and the US both have laws of due-process which were ignored in this particular case.
You should be proud that somewhere out there is a man willing to demand that our rights are maintained. And instead, you fling monkey-poo at us, "war of civilisations, destruction! blah blah blah."
Mindless platitudes. So of course I'm going to mock and insult you mercilessly. My patience for people like you is absolutely non-existent.
Commitments to human rights means respecting the laws you claim to uphold. And any back-peddling, any codicils, any exemptions - that's when the law, and possibly the ideal itself - begins falling apart.
Either you uphold the law, or you begin becoming as bad as the people you're at odds with. And the moment you begin your arguments with quantifiers such as "We're not as bad as the enemy!" is the moment when you can know you've lost.
Are you done? You ready to act like something other than a petulant child?
No? Well, I can wait.
*the sound of crickets*
*the sound of music*
Calmed down?
Had a lollypop?
Taken your ritalin?
Good.
Now stop acting like a silly twonk and listen:
Your government (because you are presumably a Seppo) broke the law. And the Canadian government, where I live, is complicit in this crime. Now, your government claims time and again that it believes in due process of the law, and that means presuming innocence before being found guilty. This means being able to call a lawyer, this means respecting the conventions for human rights. This means giving him a lawyer if he cannot provide his own.
What it does not include is:
A)extraditing him to another country where he can be tortured (a practice the US government is not allowed to legally practice).
B)Extradite without permission from the country where the person lives.
C)Let a country who has no jurisdiction hold him illegally, in violation of both Canadian and US law.
All this culminates in a fine gourmet beverage which declares the following:
The natural rights which you take for granted, are not absolute, and are not natural, and can be revoked, because your government thinks you too might be a terrorist. And there is nothing you can do about it.
It's not about U.S. bashing. It's not about the fact that you're a ranty little motherfucker. It's about the fact that *your rights are no longer absolutely guaranteed* by a government that says it believes in natural rights and freedoms.
This ought to scare the ever-living shit out of you.
First off, free advice. Paragraphs are your friend!
You guys are misunderstanding me.
Then explain yourself more clearly.
I'm not saying that what happened wasn't horrible and I'm not saying he should not get his justice.
Wait a minute, aren't you the same guy who said Yes it is sad that sometimes inoccent people have to pay the man for crimes commited by others, but would you rather see one innocent man be punished so the rest brought to justice or one man go free while the rest do as they please.
If you're repenting and accepting that you made a mistake, huzzah and rejoicing.
The individual is very important, but the needs of the few do not out weigh the needs of the many.
Yes, but in all constitutionally liberal democracies, they still have, y'know, "Rights of the Minority". Stuff like that.
Its busy shaking in the wrong direction. Its because its not what is popular in the news right now and other people like your self will jump on any band wagon that comes along.
That's me. I'm all hardcore over that man-people-shouldn't-be-tortured bandwagon. But I've been on it a while now, and I eagerly await something shiny and new--perhaps a 'diseases are bad!' bandwagon.
Innocent people are presumed guilty everyday in this country and in other democratic countries all over the world. I don't hear you crying out for them. Where is your supposed fist of fury for them?...
You people never talk about inner city poverty, discrimination or how brutal murders go on everyday and nobody says a word because you choose to ignore it.
Okay, now I'm losing track. You're angry because the liberals aren't venting enough about the domestic issues?
Seriously, you've got me hardcore scratching my head over this one. Well, it's either you or the delousing powder from my hippie commune.
It's sort of like Glass Joe from the first Punch Out game, who just tells you "Here's where it really hurts! Please beat me until I can retire!"
Even the most ardent warhawk I know admits that Bush's domestic policy sucks horrible ass. I'd prefer not to go into it, as this response is getting pretty long as is (and uses paragraphs! LEARN FROM ME!) but in short, you ain't doin' yourself no favors.
I never hear a liberal talk about the schools or hospitals that are being built every day by the men and woman of our military or the praise of the majority of the Iraqi people for America for helping them gain their freedom, which is being jepordized by the insurgents
There's a point there--though 'liberal' is far too general. Things are not as bad as the (general) left would say and not as good as the (general) right would have you believe.
Praise of the majority, though? We'll wait for the chaos to subside before I touch that one.
Do I even need to bring up Afganistan. Freed from a regime that consistintly beat, raped, tortured, and violently oppressed women. You don't hear about these things because it dosen't make good press. Its not what people like you want to hear.
And yet somehow *you've* managed to hear about this secret! Possibly because it was on the front page!
Also, please don't tell me what people 'like me' (whatever the fuck that means--bipeds? Carbon-based? Scorpios?) want to hear. I want to hear facts as unbiased as possible. I can put the rest together myself.
And the dude that said you get more bees with honey. Buddy, please ... give me a break. That was pretty funny though.
We try our hardest.
Though it was 'flies'. Not bees.
Here is a analogy for you. Have you every seen a bully on the play ground. Did you see what happened to the kids that thought that was a good idea. They got beat harder. People, playground politics still apply today as they ever did as when we were kids.
See...again, losing me. Perhaps your uncanny ability to read 'flies' as 'bees' also changes the meaning of 'moderate' to 'terrorist'.
Look, here's a pretty simple bullet-point synopsis that everyone should be able to agree with.
1) We do not want to be killed.
2) Extremists want to kill us.
3) Extremists are therefore antagonistic (that means opposed!) to us.
4) Moderates do not want to kill us.
5) Moderates are therefore good for us.
6) Moderates who get pissed off may become extremists.
7) Torturing their people *will* cause moderates to get pissed off.
8) Torturing people will cause moderates to become extremists.
9) Reasonable treatment of their people will keep moderates moderate.
10) We should try to treat their people reasonably to limit extremism.
Add to this a rather simple Pavlov's Bell that we're, in essence, tying together the phrases 'democracy' and 'being beaten with a hose' and, well, it doesn't look so good, now, does it?
When supposedly peacefull people like your self lose thier patience at a person like myself is the moment you know you've lost. For someone as compasionate and just as you seem to be you sure are intollerant of another persons right to an opinion.
Well, I'm somewhat annoyed at your damned lack of paragraphs (and spell-check, but I guess that'd be asking too much) but angry? Ha! I am King Passive. And I'm not intolerant of your right to an opinion. I've just got this weird habit of wanting justification for it, and the best you've been able to give so far is "Man, you think we suck at foreign policy, check out our domestic!" mixed with a lot of "Yeah, we've done bad things, but man, the other guys? EVEN WORSE."
"Yeah, we've done bad things, but man, the other guys? EVEN WORSE."
When you start saying things like "We're not as bad as the other guy" that's when the argument is pretty much over, because what happens now is:
1) Justification will be sought for illegal actions
2) Rights will be repealed
3) The rhetoric becomes not about maintaining the high-ground, but about not maintaining a higher-ground.
4) Comparing oneself to the enemy is usually an indicator of a certain degree of shared attributes.
5) It's a slippery-slope that gets even more slippery the further you walk. Watch out for that ice-trap!
From the Bill of Rights:
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Amendment XV
Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
Time to weigh in on the flame war. To begin with, allow me, as a serving CF member, to clarify the Canadian contribution to the war in Iraq. It's 4 officers. Doing admin. duties for (If I recall correctly) the Consulate. That is it.
Next, with regards to the Americans and their "Rights", they have none. They lost them all the minute they conceded victory to "The Terrorists". The big brother society which they have formed for themselves in a -ahem- "Post-9/11 world" (stupid term...) is antithesis to the very ideals and values that they may have demonstrated in the past that infuriated their opponents. Love of freedom? Gone. Tolerance of religion? Gone. Cultural melting pot? Gone. These have all now been replaced by a flinch reaction of fear and suspicion.
Consider this for a moment. Who ARE "The Terrorists" that your politicos are always talking about? There is no more a "The Terrorists" group than there is Illuminati secretly plotting to rule the world.
Classed as terrorists by the international police and military communities are such organizations as the IRA (who get most of their money from those of Irish descent living in North America - And thus love it), Greenpeace (Who are an almost entirely G8 funded organization - and who thus therefore love the western way of life), and even some political parties, such as Hamas - Who, running a military now as they rule Palestine, is in fact a legitimate government.
There is no such thing as "Them" or "Us". All there is are a collection of individuals all acting in a manner which is designed to further their own intents. Anything more is anthropomorphisizing mere phenomena of rules in action. It isn't self aware, merely complex.
With regards to the recent change in Canada's political landscape, though I vote liberal (they always promise me a pay raise), the only party that I have any respect for is NDP. Not much, mind you, but some. At least they ALMOST acted like adults in the past election.
But, as opposed as I am to Harper's Conservative Government, to say he's another George W Bush is to do him a disservice. He RARELY mentions religion, and the lack of a theocracy in all but name is the one thing left that separates us from our southern neighbors.
Well, there are many more differences than may immediately come to mind. But I get the feeling as though you were talking about "cultural" differences, which is really such a vague and abstract thing that even discussing it doesn't really seem like a terribly fulfilling idea even to me.
I apologize about the lack of paragraphs. If I used paragraphs I thought it would make it to long and on the lack of spell check I don't have a lot of time so I tend to rush things like this. Its not like I am writing a paper.
Seriously, thank you. I can usually understand the point without spell-check, but a lack of paragraphs actually makes it that much harder to follow your points--which thus damages your own argument. And, this might seem strange given my general snarky tone, but I do want to understand your point. Otherwise, we're arguing past each other.
I don't believe I ever said "We're not as bad as the other guys."
No, but you've made repeated inferences to the idea that "it's okay for US to torture, because it's a necessary evil to survive their onslaught."
If it was not for the U.S. what would the world be like. It would be speaking a lot more German and Russian I'll tell you that.
Ah. I was unaware Bush had time-travel powers to save the world twice before.
You realize we're complaining about the current administration, right? You realize that this is not an attack on your country in general, but rather on the policies of the current administration? Can you, in your mind, separate the two?
I'm pretty sure you guys are going blow up at that comment, but thats allright your anger makes me laugh.
...Apparently the phrase "King Passive" means nothing, so I'll use a smaller word: Calm. Easy-going. If you still don't understand, google "simple wikipedia."
If I got angry at every wannabe on the internet, my heart a'splode. Seriously. Unless you fuck my dead dog, you're not getting close.
You realize that this is not an attack on your country in general, but rather on the policies of the current administration? Can you, in your mind, separate the two?
Not so much a policy, per se, as a blatant violation of US and international law.
I'm sorry, did I just hear we were being protected by the US? From what, exactly?
Man-eating squirrels.
You realize that this is not an attack on your country in general, but rather on the policies of the current administration? Can you, in your mind, separate the two?
Not so much a policy, per se, as a blatant violation of US and international law.
Touche. You win this round...
would you rather see one innocent man be punished so the rest brought to justice or one man go free while the rest do as they please.
The individual is very important, but the needs of the few do not out weigh the needs of the many.
Dude, you are so missing the point of what a democracy is, and what justice is. Justice means letting 10 guilty people go if it means the protection of the rights of one - just ONE - innocent. Otherwise we're all fucked.
If you're willing to let your government torture innocent people, where does it end? Who decides what the "greater good" is? The Bush administration? No thanks.
I see that one of my points was misinterpreted. I did not deny the existence of groups of people who use force and terror to try and bring about a change to the world. These are, in fact, what we can call terrorists.
My comment was with regards to a dark and secretive bunch that seems to be lurking in the darker corners of the American psyche nowadays, called "The Terrorists." As in "If we (blank), then The Terrorists have won." or "The Terrorists have to be shown that they do not control our destiny." and so on.
This attitude and approach is all too similar to the concept of Zion in the fanatical right (skinhead, KKK, et c.) in that "The Jews control Hollywood" and whatnot. Certainly, the ARE those of Jewish faith in the movie industry, but not as a conscious beast trying to shape our culture.
Likewise, there are terrorist organizations (plentiful even in Canada - of this I have more than mere supposition or media reporting to go on), but there isn't an all-encompassing "The Terrorists" that the American media seems to enjoy discussing.
It almost appears as if this whole thing is going to continue going down the crapper. After all, the one thing that most foreign nationals deplore most about the US is their apparent drive to empire. And what is the US doing more and more of in response to these terrorists? That's right, they are increasing their global holdings and influence. It is counterproductive.
In fact, the best response that the US could have made to the WTC event would be to stop all international activities for a spell, examine and assess WHY there are fanatics after them, and try their damndest to correct it. A response of civility, not of force.
Now, in regards to the Canada issue:
We are always concerned with the activities of the US for a few reasons. First, our economies are too closely tied together for us to ignore them. Second, far too many nations of the world view us as being one and the same, thus any action that the US takes internationally may impair our treaties, trade, and tourism.
The idea that the US could move north and annex Canada is absurd. Certainly, they have the military strength to do so. Our Navy on both coasts is outnumbered by San Diego alone. Our Army is outnumbered by two or so of their bases. Our Air Force is overpowered by Edwards AFB. BUT. We have far too many mutual defence treaties for the US to ever even CONSIDER the possibility. The Commonwealth alone has enough combined capabilities to easily deal with the Americans.
Plus, if you examine the last conflict between our two nations, we won, and burned the white house to boot.
But enough with the US vs. CA thing.
My central issue is that, over time, the Americans have completely lost any real perspective of their ideals. If Jefferson was alive today, he'd most likely stage another revolution. Every move you make is recorded. Every call you make can be monitored. Everything you buy can be assessed, and everything you voice against those in power is used by others as fuel for a social rift.
Think about this: Racial Profiling is an accepted practice. Yet ALL of those living in North America migrated here at one time or another. So there isn't any way to tell if Achmed came here in the 80s for a better life or if Ahmed over there came a month ago to recruit for a terrorist cell.
Which ethnicities populate the US prisons? Are they flawed genetically, or is there something correctable that has forced them into those circumstances? And if so, what steps are being taken to correct that? After all, the prison populations SHOULD be a microcosm sample of the national statistics. Isn't every culture subject to the law?
Rather than constantly waging international military actions, the US ought to be working on improving the average life in America. If they have international problems, then they should use diplomacy and bargaining to resolve it. Violence causes violence. If you wish to live peacefully, then you must find peaceful solutions to your problems. I may be in the military, but in the past 10 years we've been employed far more domestically than in theatre. Canada always has forest fires, floods, or ice storms to deal with. I'm assured of a job even if the world finally grows up.
Hi everyone,
Here in Europe we have seen that kind of actions from the US republican goverment in the past (specially with Reagan, and of course: George Bush). We have seen them in our own countries, with the implicated injerency in our internal laws and policy, and in close nations in the Mediterranean area, sometimes with local support (massive ultra-right wind parties in France, Spain, Germany, Italy).
They (Bush's team) have been supporting semi-fascist presidents like Aznar, Berlusconi, etc. against inmigrant communities (muslims, etc.) and european aboriginal people (irish, breton, basques, corsians, etc) using the CIA and a lot of Fox-liked mass media. Oftenly without any probe and with a demonstrated fault of human rights.
Now we are really worried about the americans, about the people living in your country: citizens, like you, that they are victims. We all, the civil people in the world, must ask for justice and respect to our governments (specially those who use the word "democracy" as an excuse).
This kind of terrible actions only produces one thing: hate. Terrible and uncontrolable hate from another side of the globe.
They, these fanatics (like Bush, Laden, Hussein, Aznar or Berlusconi) want we to hate each other, and after that, start a new conflict "in our name". Like terrorists do.
The facts you have narrated in this post are terrorism too.
We all, the human race, are so tired of terrorism. They put bombs and we die. Despite if they are christians or muslims o communists or capitalists. They are fascists.
Excuse me for my poor english (it's not my first language, neither the second one) and take care, all of you.
P.S.= I love your work, Mr. Stover.
I'm just curious, MWS...how many
"conservative" blogs did you paste this post on as a comment? I saw it on both AoSHQ and protein wisdom yesterday.
Like I said, just curious.
For lots and lots and LOTS of discussion on this topic (although, curiously, a recent post on this topic doesn't appear in this category; I'll have to see about that) see the Maher Arar category over at Obsidian Wings.
Heavy lifting done by people who are not me, just to be clear.
I'll have to see about that
Seen about, now. I see that the date on this post is Feb 20, which makes it not all that out-of-date WRT the dismissal, but curiously timed relative to the Protein Wisdom comment that let me here. Anyway, go read.
I never paste my posts. Anywhere. I barely waste my time with THIS blog. You think I'm gonna waste my time with other people's?
Be serious.
Now -- finally, following a serious space-monkey attack -- I have to get back to work.
But watch this space. I will be posting again soon, as it appears I once again have a functioning brain.
me.
Oh, by the way --
Yann?
I appreciate your support, and your comment.
Citizens have to remember we're citizens, I guess. Regardless of who's in charge. There are implications to the word that go deeper than "inhabitant" . . .
Thanks.
Hi all!
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